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	<title>Comments on: To ethanol or Not ethanol…Hmmm…now that is a question.</title>
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	<link>http://digitalpoetry.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/to-ethanol-or-not-ethanol%e2%80%a6hmmm%e2%80%a6now-that-is-a-question/</link>
	<description>A vision of the world through my eyes...</description>
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		<title>By: michaeldavidjay</title>
		<link>http://digitalpoetry.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/to-ethanol-or-not-ethanol%e2%80%a6hmmm%e2%80%a6now-that-is-a-question/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>michaeldavidjay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 07:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://digitalpoetry.wordpress.com/2007/12/20/to-ethanol-or-not-ethanol%e2%80%a6hmmm%e2%80%a6now-that-is-a-question/#comment-66</guid>
		<description>The Cal gasoline ten facts, are of course... very biased.  (It is amazing what &#039;facts&#039; you get from the competition. (these are facts from someone trying to sell MTBE)  MTBE of course replaced &#039;lead&#039;, and... there are some doubts to its safety, and just because it is not associated with cancer does not mean that a person wants other nasty things it can cause. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE

Responses:

1: cancer? it does not stop people from drinking it...  Ethanol is the type of alcohol in beer, or wine.  The concentrations where MTBE become a significant risk are FAR lower.

2:  cost:  --- likely true in California, but, the reverse is true in Kansas.... supply and demand you know.  (Kansas had produced so much corn this year, for example, that it was dumped outside in front of grain bins to wait for the train (after the bins were full)  Seriously, that little bit of Ethanol production helped take care of the &quot;surplus&quot;

3: first part is totally wrong... no benzine in PURE ethanol... if there were wouldn&#039;t be pure... strange they don&#039;t mention the MTBE effect in a spill, could this be because there are EPA talks about it being a dangerous ground-water contaminate? do they not want to talk about kidney problems? California banned MTBE because the nasty health effects it cased when the spill went down into the water table.

4: N/A... and not realistic.  Production per acre could not possibly justify a pipeline.  by the way MTBE has the same problem [dissolves in water easily]!  (and is more toxic -- note how many people drink ethanol)

5: ???  not even realistic... and I can cite other studies that give very different numbers. (I will admit, CORN ethanol is very inefficient, but still, the manufactures and the farmers have to make a profit, and pay their taxes.)  Estimates range from 40% gain (unrealistic) to 30% loss (also unrealistic) for corn ethanol.  Remember though, that the most pessimistic 30% loss assumes that the distillers grain is a waste product of 0 value, NOT that it is used as feed.  [however, THIS means, that the production of corn-ethanol is limited by the production of beef in the general area... and, I can assure you, farmers cannot afford to over-supply... if meat gets to cheap, they will get out of it.]

6 OK... not even relevant, they should ONLY mention the 1 to 4 % drop that e-10 gets, (unless you &#039;need&#039; the higher octane) They are trying to sell their ADDITIVE, not MTBE as a fuel. (unless, they want to tell what sort of mileage you would get on MTBE-85)  [anyways -- you only USE e-85 if you bought something to burn it -- not as an additive]

7:  I walk to work... look at how much I remove from the Highway trust every year by not paying the taxes to put gas in my car, and burn it...  The argument that we don&#039;t consume enough.... is a BAD argument.  -- (sorry... I&#039;m totally opposed to anyone who argues that I hurt the economy by not borrowing enough, or consuming enough... once it is gone, its gone... I&#039;d rather conserve)

8:  and the number for MTBE? 55.2°C is a pretty low boiling point.

9:  FAIR observation!  some of the materials used in &#039;older&#039; cars could not handle ethanol -- check owners manual before using.

10:  one of my favorite arguments....  The corrosion already happened... but, yes, wash it off, it might leak...  *go ahead and use e-10... its not like the other additives are not solvents too*... but e-85 can ruin something pretty quick.



-----------------------------------------------------


This list... was garbage, MTBE is dangerous, and God forbid it ever get in my water. -- however your writing is good.  NO, it is not possible to &#039;solve&#039; the energy problem this way...  the corn needs to be for feed in the end, or its not profitable.  The prices of corn can&#039;t be pushed too high.  YES, there are other ways to make it, but, for now at least, it is just an additive.

Perhaps, we will make it from stalks someday -- when oil costs $300 per barrel, and we all have flex fuel vehicles, and for some strange reason, bio-diesel didn&#039;t take off here. -- but no matter what, we don&#039;t have the production capacity to keep doing things the same as we are doing now....  production can never meet demand :-).  and that fuel that was produced by nature God only knows how long ago is not enough to last forever.

pretty soon, lots of us will be walking to work, turning off the lights....  and turning down the heat.    Conservation is the final solution.... we can&#039;t make everything we consume -- no matter how good we get at making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Cal gasoline ten facts, are of course&#8230; very biased.  (It is amazing what &#8216;facts&#8217; you get from the competition. (these are facts from someone trying to sell MTBE)  MTBE of course replaced &#8216;lead&#8217;, and&#8230; there are some doubts to its safety, and just because it is not associated with cancer does not mean that a person wants other nasty things it can cause. see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE</a></p>
<p>Responses:</p>
<p>1: cancer? it does not stop people from drinking it&#8230;  Ethanol is the type of alcohol in beer, or wine.  The concentrations where MTBE become a significant risk are FAR lower.</p>
<p>2:  cost:  &#8212; likely true in California, but, the reverse is true in Kansas&#8230;. supply and demand you know.  (Kansas had produced so much corn this year, for example, that it was dumped outside in front of grain bins to wait for the train (after the bins were full)  Seriously, that little bit of Ethanol production helped take care of the &#8220;surplus&#8221;</p>
<p>3: first part is totally wrong&#8230; no benzine in PURE ethanol&#8230; if there were wouldn&#8217;t be pure&#8230; strange they don&#8217;t mention the MTBE effect in a spill, could this be because there are EPA talks about it being a dangerous ground-water contaminate? do they not want to talk about kidney problems? California banned MTBE because the nasty health effects it cased when the spill went down into the water table.</p>
<p>4: N/A&#8230; and not realistic.  Production per acre could not possibly justify a pipeline.  by the way MTBE has the same problem [dissolves in water easily]!  (and is more toxic &#8212; note how many people drink ethanol)</p>
<p>5: ???  not even realistic&#8230; and I can cite other studies that give very different numbers. (I will admit, CORN ethanol is very inefficient, but still, the manufactures and the farmers have to make a profit, and pay their taxes.)  Estimates range from 40% gain (unrealistic) to 30% loss (also unrealistic) for corn ethanol.  Remember though, that the most pessimistic 30% loss assumes that the distillers grain is a waste product of 0 value, NOT that it is used as feed.  [however, THIS means, that the production of corn-ethanol is limited by the production of beef in the general area... and, I can assure you, farmers cannot afford to over-supply... if meat gets to cheap, they will get out of it.]</p>
<p>6 OK&#8230; not even relevant, they should ONLY mention the 1 to 4 % drop that e-10 gets, (unless you &#8216;need&#8217; the higher octane) They are trying to sell their ADDITIVE, not MTBE as a fuel. (unless, they want to tell what sort of mileage you would get on MTBE-85)  [anyways -- you only USE e-85 if you bought something to burn it -- not as an additive]</p>
<p>7:  I walk to work&#8230; look at how much I remove from the Highway trust every year by not paying the taxes to put gas in my car, and burn it&#8230;  The argument that we don&#8217;t consume enough&#8230;. is a BAD argument.  &#8212; (sorry&#8230; I&#8217;m totally opposed to anyone who argues that I hurt the economy by not borrowing enough, or consuming enough&#8230; once it is gone, its gone&#8230; I&#8217;d rather conserve)</p>
<p>8:  and the number for MTBE? 55.2°C is a pretty low boiling point.</p>
<p>9:  FAIR observation!  some of the materials used in &#8216;older&#8217; cars could not handle ethanol &#8212; check owners manual before using.</p>
<p>10:  one of my favorite arguments&#8230;.  The corrosion already happened&#8230; but, yes, wash it off, it might leak&#8230;  *go ahead and use e-10&#8230; its not like the other additives are not solvents too*&#8230; but e-85 can ruin something pretty quick.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>This list&#8230; was garbage, MTBE is dangerous, and God forbid it ever get in my water. &#8212; however your writing is good.  NO, it is not possible to &#8217;solve&#8217; the energy problem this way&#8230;  the corn needs to be for feed in the end, or its not profitable.  The prices of corn can&#8217;t be pushed too high.  YES, there are other ways to make it, but, for now at least, it is just an additive.</p>
<p>Perhaps, we will make it from stalks someday &#8212; when oil costs $300 per barrel, and we all have flex fuel vehicles, and for some strange reason, bio-diesel didn&#8217;t take off here. &#8212; but no matter what, we don&#8217;t have the production capacity to keep doing things the same as we are doing now&#8230;.  production can never meet demand <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> .  and that fuel that was produced by nature God only knows how long ago is not enough to last forever.</p>
<p>pretty soon, lots of us will be walking to work, turning off the lights&#8230;.  and turning down the heat.    Conservation is the final solution&#8230;. we can&#8217;t make everything we consume &#8212; no matter how good we get at making.</p>
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